Raid at Yearning for Zion
On April 7th, in a moment strongly reminiscent of the infamous Short Creek Raid, Texas authorities descended on the Yearning for Zion ranch, a stronghold of the FLDS. More than 400 children were forcibly removed from the ranch, following an unidentified allegation of child abuse. Many mothers accompanied their children, who will be temporarily placed in foster homes. Their fathers were not allowed to leave the ranch.I don't condone child abuse, but have yet to hear any evidence of a widespread pattern of child abuse at the ranch. I hope the matter will be sorted out quickly, and that the families will be reunited. I suspect that the child protection service overreacted. Descending on an entire town on the basis of one allegation seems excessive to me.
I notice that no one was arrested for practicing polygamy, and hope the government continues its trend of moving out of our bedrooms, our homes, and our families.
posted by Martin at 6:58 PM
Comments:
Anytime any polygamists are under the jackboot all polygamists are in danger. The climate is very hostile.
Despite the good will engendered by BIG LOVE very few people actually saw the show. Usually the media is speaking with angry ex-wives and so forth. The media molds public viewpoints. Witness the WACO HOLOCAUST as an example of the complete lack of true journalism and instead the toadying to propaganda of hate.
All sorts of alternate lifestyle marriage is inexorably moving towards public acceptance and legality. This is, again, due to media and government leading the masses towards a predetermined outcome.
Yet the lifestyle of a man with plural wives is in the government's crosshairs.
In a world where women run states, and may even run this nation,we are told that women are helpless pawns under the thumb of evil patriarchs.
Polygamist women have chosen,they made a politically incorrect choice. We are all free to choose, but we must choose as dictated. This is what passes for freedom.
WACO the masses cheered on the government, if they even stopped to think about it. Here in the case of the YFZ "compound" assault, into the very Holiest of Holies I might add, the same apathy or approval exists. Not very hopeful is it?
Like GITMO, the persecution of polygamists goes virtually unchallenged; the rot runs deep and decent people need to speak out against injustice.
“Were we the stupid, degraded, heartbroken beings that we have been represented, silence might better become us; but, as women of God, women who stand not as dictators, but as counselors to their husbands,and who, in the purest, noblest sense of refined womanhood, being truly their helpmates, we not only speak because we have the right, but justice and humanity demand that we should.”
Eliza R. Snow, “Great Indignation Meeting,” Deseret News Weekly, 19 January 1870.
Martin, I believe it was one of your wives that appeared on CNN last night. However, whether the two of you are from the same household or not, I feel deeply concerned that her statements there and the content of your blog here confuse the issue currently playing out in El Dorado. Just because both your story and their story involve 'polygamy' doesn't mean the same situation is at hand.
There was a time in our Nation's history when the population at large rejected the practice of polygamy purely because they felt a personal moral objection to it as a lifestyle (much like the current rejection of gay marriage). But the collective sentiment of our nation has come a long way over the last 120 years--especially when it comes to polygamy. Polygamy is only one of many sexually alternative lifestyles practiced in the world today. And when it is practiced by consenting adults who have had all of the freedoms, opportunities, exposure, and education this nation has to offer--nobody cares! Nobody cares anymore about the polygamist lifestyle! We might not understand it, feel drawn to it, and may even feel like it's "weird", but nobody really cares. (Anybody who has spent any time contemplating the complex details of polygamy agrees that the US government should de-criminalize polygamy. I certainly do.)
What we DO care about is the emotional domination and functional repression of women and children that has been going on for generations. Just the ISOLATION of this population in El Dorado is enough to justify the collective concern and ACTION of the officials in Texas. If the FLDS doesn't want to be treated like a dangerous cult, they should stop acting like one!
Lending any stability your consenting relationship might have to those that are emotionally and functionally imprisoning these people in El Dorado is tragic and wrong. It empowers the abusers, abandons the victims, and crushes any hope you may have in successfully getting Americans to decriminalize polygamy. It is your responsibility, as it is mine and everyone, to ensure that the horrific atrocities happening in the FLDS ends with our generation.
--Charity Stone
“Next in importance to freedom and justice is popular education, without which neither freedom nor justice can be permanently maintained.”
Martin, I agree with what you are saying. I know that if they had some substantiated evidence of child abuse, that you would be very opposed to that, but that you are concerned that perhaps the bounds were overstepped because of the stigma of polygamy.
I think that many people have associated plural marriage with religious extremism (not that persecution for religious extremism is right either!!) and so the government knows that many people will not identify with the plight of an entire town displaced.
This is why I admire people like you who will be vocal and open about your lifestyle and lend a sane, balanced view of polygamy! Once people begin to see that "normal" people pursue this lifestyle, then perhaps events like this one will be less likely to occur in the future.
You suck, and your wifes are dumb bitches..... period. You want more than one woman don't get married you fuck face
I'm letting the above comment stand as representative of the careful thought that some people have put into the consideration of polygamy as a viable alternative lifestyle :)
Martin I think your decision to let the post stand is a good one.
While I would never say that ALL anti-polygamy people are a certain way I would suggest that too many are rather vicious and opposed to a free and open discussion on the subject.
In our local newspaper the pro-choice on polygamy side is routinely eliminated from view by anti-choice on marriage people who do not want our voice heard. I have not seen the silencing of the anti-choice on marriage people on such forums.
Also the vilest and rudest and crudest of language is used in lashing out at polygamists.
I don't wonder, myself, why the difference. I leave it to honest, thinking people to ponder this.
In fact a newspaper columnist of the paper who is also a historian of the LDS faith has called the most prominent anti-polygamist group a hate group.
I realize that women who are divorced or otherwise alienated from spouses often have a less than high appraisal of the former spouse. Sometimes this will extend to smearing an entire community as a way of getting back at that particular person.
Due to the infringement of rights we have seen in the past and are witnessing today, with NO PUBLIC OUTCRY, we can see that those who spew hatred and fear and lies about our community are in fact, very dangerous people.
I pray for them that though they may not agree with you and I, Martin, they will at least stick to the TRUTH.
According to Esquire magazines's Steven Alderman, "anthropologist Philip Kilbride says that polygamy would reduce the divorce rate and be better for kids."
"I personally detest polygamy. Yet if we yield to our impulse and single out one hated minority, the First Amendment becomes little more than hype and we become little more than hypocrites. For my part, I would rather have a neighbor with different spouses than a country with different standards for its citizens.
I know I can educate my three sons about the importance of monogamy, but hypocrisy can leave a more lasting impression."
Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington Law School.
Oct 2004 USA Today
I tell you Martin, and all of our friends, Christian, Jewish and Muslim and those of no religion alike, that if this raid on YFZ goes on without an accounting then a new level of police state has arrived.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/04/12/20080412flds-az.html
SATURDAY APRIL 12
"Investigators entered the FLDS property known as YFZ (or Yearn for Zion) Ranch based on detailed calls from a terrified teenager who claimed she was raped and abused by her 50-year-old "spiritual" husband. A law-enforcement affidavit says the girl feared for her baby and for a 15-year-old sister at another FLDS location outside Texas.
More than 400 minors were removed from the ranch and placed in state custody, but investigators have failed to identify or locate the victim."
"...Child Protective Services in Arizona recently got a similar report about a teenager claiming to be in Colorado City.
Arizona investigators went to the community and conducted interviews but were unable to locate the girl or verify the account. They did not remove any children from homes.
Flora Jessop, who left the FLDS church years ago and leads the non-profit Child Protection Project, confirmed Friday that she submitted information to Arizona authorities after receiving calls from a pregnant teenager in Colorado City."
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0411cps0411.html
"Colorado City CPS call resembles one made in Texas
One led to raid, one didn't
Amanda J. Crawford
The Arizona Republic
Apr. 11, 2008 12:00 AM
Arizona child-welfare officials are investigating a call from a 16-year-old girl alleging sexual abuse in the polygamist stronghold of Colorado City - a call similar to one in Texas that led officials to raid a related polygamist compound last week and take more than 400 children into state custody.
The calls came within a week of each other and were allegedly made by girls of the same age and involved similar allegations of abuse. In both cases, the calls were made to outside organizations and referred to child-welfare authorities. In both cases, officials were unable to immediately find the girls who made the calls."
The FLDS women and children are being held at Fort Concho in San Angelo. The children according to ABC13 today said the children will end up in foster homes.
On Thursday San Angelo was hit by a tornado.
I dont understand about polygamy and it certainly sounds odd to me. Why is it that polygamy always means a man marrying a number of women? why is it i have never heard of the opposite, a woman marrying 20 men?
Why has it to be "marrying"?
I may understand and support the "alternate lifestyle" bit but why an "alternate lifestyle" chooses to use the same institutions "non alternate lifestyles" have? That is, maybe polygamy is an option for some people but why using the institution of marriage? If one yearns for an alternate lifestyle one should create alternate institutions and not use the existing ones to his/her advantage and at same time ask for acceptance. No matter how much you shout and cry, an apple will stay always an apple, and it takes more than will to change it into a melon...Yo can pretend what you hold in your hands is a melon but it will be more difficult to make people accept your truth.
Besides i dont think the case at hand has anything to do with polygamy but with repression. I respect a woman who decides to share her life with a man and 23 other women, but i respect a decision not an imposition.
Sorry for my use of English but i am not native English speaker and i live in a non English speaking country...
(hey i dont want to be anonymous but it doesnt allow me to publish my comment otherwise, i dont have a google identity nor have any idea about what openid is, so i will be anonymous jose).
Hi anonymous! I imagine it's a challenge to translate "alternate lifestyle" into other languages and cultures. Suffice to say it has a clear meaning in American English, and that polygamy is an alternate lifestyle.
As far as apples go, it really isn't difficult to make an apple into a salad or an omelete. It's all about transformation by addition :)
Anonymous said @8:34 PM
"Why is it that polygamy always means a man marrying a number of women? why is it i have never heard of the opposite, a woman marrying 20 men?"
I would suggest you read Martin's wonderful post on that specific topic
located on this thread:
http://polygamynow.blogspot.com/2008/03/advice-requested.html
Nice of Judge Walther to order the confiscation of all cellphones in the possession of FLDS women and children held in deplorable conditions. Seems the victims of this wholesale kidnapping, in my opinion, were sending images of their jail to a Utah newspaper.
Who is it that is cutting off contact with outside world exactly?
The laws in Texas were changed SPECIFICALLY in regard to the FLDS. What about the 1st Amendment.
The children are healthy, well-adjusted but being subjected to offensive treatment by CPS, in the view of the FLDS moms and children in custody.
Martin please note this sobering bit of information from the Corpus Christi Caller Times of yesterday:
"[John]Hawkins, who is not charged with having more than one wife but with promoting polygamy in his West Texas compound, is scheduled for trial in September."
Let lovers of freedom speak out MORE now, rather than less.
Silence is deadly.
Save the families, save our rights.
Polygamy is a good thing.
Polygamy is a good survival technique in a world gone mad.
Do not be decieved. God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows that shall he also reap. Keep this is mind when the nation as a whole accepts the things which God despises and calamity and curses befall you.
This same thing will happen to the Amish soon. Our government fears any group of people who choose to live outside the norms of society together. Government is about control. It is about controlling the masses, and when any group decides to live together collectively with their own beliefs and rules - "big brother" thinks it needs to come in and save people because no one with half a mind would make these decisions for themselves.
America has long since stopped being a land of individual freedom. It is becoming a socialist society where people actually want the government to protect them from themselves.
For people who don't think that this is true, just take a look at the California court ruling that it is against the law to homeschool your children in the state. It doesn't matter that 99% of homeschooled kids get better educations and score higher on the SAT - what matters is that the state has no control over them.
Whether people like religious sects or Poly groups or not - they should stand up for their rights to choose how they want to live for themselves, because one day it will be their own civil rights being trampled by big brother. And hey, after November if the democrats win... it may not be all that long until it happens.
THEY TOOK THEIR BABIES FROM THEM!
These are the FLDS women back at Yearning For Zion ranch after the government took their babies from them. The cops lied to them, the CPS fooled them. The women were lured into another room and then doors were shut and they were surrounded by armed cops and CPS telling them their children were no longer theirs.
This is America friends.
This is what all those young men and women died in Iraq defending.
Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, [and] bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they [were] not.
~ Jeremiah 31:15
http://www.deseretnews.com/photo/1,5175,,00.html
This is link to story with photo gallery, a picture is worth a thousand words.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270583,00.html
I am undecided on the polygamy issue. I do feel that everyone should have the right to live the way they feel like it but I also feel that there WAS something wrong at the ranch. My question is, if everyone is so happy there and the children are not being abused, why do the women from the ranch ask direct questions about this? The answers should be easy. If these women are really allowed to think for themselves, then why do they talk like Stepford Wifes? I have a problem seeing their freedom and individualism when they speak like they do especially when they dodge direct and easy to answer questions. It seems like they are being controlled and not being honest.
Oops, I meant to say "why do the women from the ranch not answer direct questions about this?"
I am shocked that our "evolved society" would be so blind. In world where it is acceptable for ANYONE to have multiple partners including our leaders(who do things secretly and hurting those they love) and generations of young people having children for their parents (grandparents raisig their grandchildren) to raise and the number of dead beat dads the our government supports because the fathers refuse to pay, why would be answer such a complaint with such force? Children are mistreated in the foster care system and often end up physically abused or worse, DEAD. One has only to turn on the news to see the decline of our social system. These women and children were living very comfortably. Well fed, clothed, educated. Can we say as much for the others we have seen on the new in recent months. They are exhausting these children to say they were abused and they barely know the the definition as they have been well cared for and know almost nothing of the secular world I do not believe in rape or physical abuse.. and I don't believe there are many in the lifestyle that do... because according to their beliefs .. and the bible .. a husband is to treat his wife as Christ treated the Church. THIS WAS A COMMAND not a choice. I believe the call made by "Sarah" was either a hoax or a young girl who got pregnant by another and did not want to face her sin.
followtheriterdhotmail
I wish the mothers a fast resolve to all of this, and speedy return of your children.
Be strong!
Blessed Be!
Love and Light,
Sherry
Whether or not we believe the FLDS are living God's law makes absolutely no difference. Punish those that break the law, not a whole group of people on an anonymous tip!
Hitler had more "evidence" (contrived or not) to attempt his destruction of God's chosen people than the state of Texas does against these people!
I sincerely hope that these peaceful, God loving people gather the intestinal fortitude to sue the State of Texas into financial oblivion! They definately have grounds to... and each child is it's own lawsuit! Let's see... 400+ children... at 50 million dollars each? 20 Billion? You can build a really nice Temple to the Lord with 20 billion!
I generally do not post to blogs or anything of the sort, but I could not help myself this time. I came upon this blog in search of answers to many questions I have about polygamy (in light of the recent media attention). What I am reading here does not due justice to your stated intentions of either educating people or supporting your own cause.
In this country, Man's law is above God's law. You cannot kill simply because the bible says "an eye for an eye". There are too many religions here in the US to entertain the idea that individual churches and doctrines should have free reign without government interference. The last time I checked, you can post this blog because of our democracy. In countries were theocray rules, people do not enjoy the ability to argue about religious freedoms. Freedom of religion does not mean we can do what we want and disregard societal rules. If so, which religion wins? You want polygamy, Catholics say no- go to confession. Who is right? If we are under God's law in this country, which God? I have been to the Middle East and as a woman I hope it is not the Muslim God's law. And I bet the Muslim's would hope it is not the Christian God's law. If the Methodists (of course of certain denominations) think dancing is a sin, do we go with that and take away prom?
Christian's can go to church on Sunday's, Jewish citizens can observe the Sabbath, and you can marry as many ADULT women who CONSENT.
You want to whine about not being able to do what you want and you use the Constitution to support your logical fallacies. Freedom of religion is provided for us in the constitution not as an exucse to do what we please, but as a protection against a goverment telling us that we HAVE to go to church on Sunday or Saturday, or that we HAVE to have 1 or 3 spouses.
The very nature of this blog is consistent with that protection; there was a time in history, as well as in many countries today, that you could be arrested and jailed for this blog. Where else can a show like "Big Love" even get air time to try to educate the public?
Many people do not agree with polygamy, but they turn a blind eye because ultimately what happens between consenting adults is just that- between adults. I may not chose a husband that would marry more than one wife, but I would not sit Chiva for my dead relatives either; nor in fact do I pray 5 times a day to Allah and cover my hair and face.
In this country, you cannot beat your wife or children no matter what GOD says. You cannot kill because GOD says. What we do in the name of GOD is seperate from democratic legislation that is put in place to protect US citizen's rights to individual freedom-Ultimately, our constitution protects an individual's freedoms and makes the case that this fundemental right is not subordinate to any religion.
Is there discrimination against polygamy? Sure- just like most other things. But instead of aligning yourself with the YZR, it might better serve your purposes to highlight the benefits of polygamy and stress that some people CHOOSE that lifestyle.
Furthermore, defending a sect of your religion that makes it ok to subordinate women and raise children to have sex with men 3-4 times thier age raises the spector of the acceptance of this behavior by all polygamists.
You can blame it on the media, you can blame it on the government- you can even blame it on a hypocritcal and ignorant public.
Where is your responsibility as a polygamist to stand with other outraged citizens and parents and say WAIT- this is not ok! It is not ok that these young girls do not have choices for thier bodies or thier lives. WAIT- it is not ok to hide behind religious beliefs, and to call them polygamist's beliefs, because the majority of us DO NOT do that!!
The climate will continue to be hostile if you stand shoulder to shoulder with men who believe it is ok to marry a 14-year-old, have sex with her, and make her a mother- all without her choice.
Are you saying that? Do you think it is ok? If someone who knew nothing about polygamy came across this blog, that is exactley what they would think you are saying.
Defend polygamy all you want, educate the public, and practice what you believe with consenting wives- but please do not support the subjugation of children to make some obscure point about government intereference and the media propagating hate. There are simply too many other instances to use without having to support a small sect of men pursuing thier own delusional agenda.
And by the way, there is no comparison between the YZR raid and Gitmo. Our government was doing thier job here by responding to allegations of abuse (also there is no "probable cause" necessary in child abuse allegation in any of the 50 states; all that is needed is a proponderance of evidence). We are, however, not doing our job at Gitmo. In this situation, the US is actually comparable to the men at YZR- both are trying to deprive others of thier individual freedom under the guise of some higher moral authority. Both are breaking the law. But unlike the YZR, there are many who are challenging the detainment at Gitmo and some of the detainees have had lawyers long enough for our Supreme Court to rule the conditions of thier detainment unconstitutional. The women at the YZR might have made choices, but the children do not know they have any. Who will defend them?
This is not a case of "a man with plural wives being in the crosshairs." This is a case of men with plural CHILD-WIVES being in the crosshairs.
Can you seriously not see the difference?
"Christian's can go to church on Sunday's, Jewish citizens can observe the Sabbath, and you can marry as many ADULT women who CONSENT."
Can you seriously not see the difference between a plural and a possessive?
End apostrophe abuse!
Those kids are sure better off in Texas CPS
http://www.youtube.com/v/ISFPJL66p4c&rel=0
It is also clear that the government took care of the babies at Waco
Big Brother knows best.
"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair)
I'm for consensual polygamy, and against any group of people telling another group of people how to live without a very good reason.
Perhaps there is a good reason in this case, perhaps not. Ultimately, the courts in Texas will decide the matter. I'm heartened to hear that each child will have an individual hearing, and that enough lawyers have volunteered so that each family has legal help. I'm also happy to hear that the matter is being expedited, so that it might be resolved quickly.
I much prefer cultural evolution which is led by good example and so is attractive to others. I have reservations when I hear of cultural evolution led by force, which ultimately derives from the point of a gun.
Be that as it may, I'm heartened to hear that this is not an attack on polygamy as a whole, but rather on a particular practice of polygamy, the merits and demerits of which are not yet generally understood.
Speaking of question, I'm grateful to Question for keeping us up to date on this sad affair.
At first I was perplexed as to why my grammar garnered such attention. With further consideration I was actually flattered. I may misspell a word or two, or make a grammatical error, but I can also recognize argumentum ad hominem. I guess if the biggest argument with my post is incorrect possessives...
I did not write the post to be critical; I meant it when I said that I was earnestly looking for more info when I came across this blog. As part of the public that is not well versed in polygamy, I can say that at least the people I have heard talking about the YZR were not at all discussing the polygamist side of the story; instead, they were focused an the possibility of the children being married off so young.
Are the kids better of with the state? This is not a cut and dry issue, as they face the possibility of trauma on both fronts. What is the alternative? As a society do we just turn our heads?
Again, this website is devoted to consenting adults sharing their love, friendship, and sex- an "alternative" lifestyle in politically correct jargon.
The jargon used to describe an adult sharing their sexual love with minors is called "child molester".
http://www.abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4670370&page=2
Does Teen Bride at Center of Polygamy Case Exist?
Cops Can't Find Sect Teen Who Called for Help
By SCOTT MICHELS and CHRIS CUOMO
SAN ANGELO, Texas, April 17, 2008
In Texas, state Attorney General Greg Abbott wasn't so concerned about finding the caller named Sarah.
"It's irrelevant if the 16-year-old can and will be found," Abbott told "Good Morning America" today.
Martin you and your lovely wives are a positive and courageous exemplar of plural marriage.
I believe you to be a man of conscience, of concern. We may not agree on every thing but on what is fair, and just, and right, we do agree. It is not right that those who hate the path of plural marriage tear a hole in the 1st Amendment to attack it.
The quote above from the AG of TX shows how much disregard there is by government for the process of law and of disregard for the people as a whole. How has it come to this?
There is a better way to live than lies, distortions and might makes right. I yearn for an America where freedom is more than a slogan and where our rights are upheld.
The war on our rights is a lone one, this is just one battle.
The future has yet to be written.
State of Texas:
§ 262.101. FILING PETITION BEFORE TAKING POSSESSION OF
CHILD. An original suit filed by a governmental entity that requests permission to take possession of a child without prior notice and a hearing must be supported by an affidavit sworn to by a person with personal knowledge and stating facts sufficient to satisfy a person of ordinary prudence and caution that:
(1) there is an immediate danger to the physical health or safety of the child or the child has been a victim of neglect or sexual abuse and that continuation in the home would be contrary to the child’s welfare;
(2) there is no time, consistent with the physical health or safety of the child, for a full adversary hearing under Subchapter C; and
(3) reasonable efforts, consistent with the circumstances and providing for the safety of the child, were made to prevent or eliminate the need for the removal of the child.
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us./statutes/docs/FA/content/htm/fa.005.00.000262.00.htm#262.101.00
There is no 16 year old complainant, the authorities had reasonable interest to remove that young woman, not 421 or so children. They do not meet their own law standard.
I might add that the TX AG is threatening them with prosecution for polygamy, bigamy. Claims wives admitted it on television interviews.
Police in Colorado Springs have arrested a woman for investigation of making a false report to authorities that may be connected to the Fundamentalist LDS Church's raid on the YFZ Ranch in Texas.
The woman allegedly has a history of making calls while pretending to be a young girl.
Rozita Swinton, 33, was arrested on a warrant charging her with false reporting to authorities, a misdemeanor, the Colorado Springs Police Department confirmed in a brief statement issued late Thursday.
photo at link
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271689,00.html
Angie Voss, a supervisor with Texas Child Protective Services was on the stand yesterday.
She thinks the children should be wards of the state because MAYBE, at SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE, they may be abused.
She is also on the BoD of Children’s Advocacy Center which is using the situation in ElDorado as a fundraising tool, see
http://www.cactomgreen.org/index.php
In a newsletter from 2005 they write about their helping an abused girl named SARAH
http://www.cactomgreen.org/files/newsletter_05_fall.pdf
And when we have finished the work we’ve begun,
The Priesthood of Zion shall say ‘Tis well done.’
With friends, wives, and children, how happy we’ll be,
And shout, when the trumpets sounds, ‘Zion is free!’
Amazing, but not unexpected that Judge Walther has the state keeping the children, forcing mothers to choose between husband and faith and their babies.
Dr Smith had stated that the FLDS children were healthier and better adjusted than the average child. The FLDS YFZ ranch had VERY MUCH LOWER, rates of teen pregnancy, teen STDs and births to teens. Yet somehow this didn't seem to matter.
A writer, researcher out of Berkeley, California, Anthony Gregory, has written a compelling piece comparing the FLDS, the Branch Davidians, and the power of the state and the sense of the masses. Not very encouraging.
I felt it puts it in a perspective not often entertained.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory157.html
I wish there was an email address to those mothers who have had their children kidnapped from them by the evil Federalists. They need to get a GOOD lawyer and sue the pants off the state and the Children's Services AND the Sheriff's Dept as they are suppose to protect the PEOPLE FROM the Feds and State-not work with the Feds and state!! Those camp men have to start acting like MEN and get busy defending their families! Those children are in danger in state custody! Do you have any idea what they do to kids in state Foster care? From killer drugs to deadly vaccines to "mental" scanning- those kids will never be the same and some may even die! The men look like sissy cowards hiding behind children and women and not lifting a finger to defend or protect their families and kids - that is a SIN!! Jesus did not stand by and allow the Temple to be defiled, and Jesus also ORDERED that ALL people be armed and ready at all times to defend their lives and families! Does someone have to teach those guys HOW to BE MEN ?!
Luke 22:36. To even sell the clothes on your back if you don't have the money for a weapon! THAT Is how important being armed is to God! Jesus was NOT a coward and He did not hide behind others - he stood tall! I think those people need to read their Bible better and see what JESUS our Savior orders us to do - Jesus is our Savior and the One who we are to be emulating, not any man or so-called 'prophet' that basically they have as their idol they worship. Gosh this is what the Muslims do! God punished Israel over an over and had their enemy haul them away into slavery also because of their WORSHIPPING IDOLS AND PUTTING OTHER THINGS AND PEOPLE BEFORE GOD! This is what this Texas group has done and they seem blind to it! READ THE Word of GOD! OBEY GOD, NOT MAN! And to be an hororable man of the church or a deacon/bishop, you are allowed to have only ONE wife and one well behaved family! 1 Tim 3:2
These ladies make beautiful clothes. Such professional pleats and design - they could have a good business making clothes for people! But the 'men' there are very disappointing - not real MEN at all to allow this to happen ! You don't see the Feds raiding Muslim camps now do you! That is because the Feds are AFRAID OF THE MUSLIMS BECAUSE THE MUSLIMS DEFEND THEMSELVES! And the Muslims are a dangrous bunch and are very brutal to their wives and kids! But the State or Feds won't touch them BECAUSE THEY HAVE LOTS OF GUNS AND WILL USE THEM Fast IF THE FEDS STEP ONE INCH ON THEIR PRIVATE PROPERTY! And they shoot to kill!
There is no respect without FEAR !The other religous camps also need to get this reputation and it will take a few times to get the message across to the Feds, but THEY WILL GET THE MESSAGE. You need your boys and girls to learn how to shoot and handle a gun safely. God says it is just and honorable to defend your own territory and land! You are an honorable soldier in a 'war' when you defend your own! Romans 13:14
When you attack other lands (like the USA does all the time), you are a terrorist; so there is a big difference! These people need encouragement and the men need some backbone. Sue the state, the Sheriff, the Children's Services and the court system ! This was an all out illegal attack on your persons,families, and private property! Feds have no Constitutional right to touch anyone on their own property-and certainly NOT to kidnap their children out of their home! This is Marxism/Communism ! Thomas Jefferson (one of America's Founders) would have shot them all dead on the spot just like he did that traitor on the White House Front lawn!! Our Founders were brave tough men, as all men should be! REAL men never hide behind skirts or children - they defend them instead !
http://www.bcfs.net/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=581
Link to Baptist Child and Family Services
They have been operating the shelters for the FLDS. Note the adoption services.
Is this where this is headed?
This is happening in a so-called free country.
Who dares resist the tyrant?
Orwellian.
I cannot fathom the injuries done to these families by the government.
I might also mention that the young boys taken from their parents were moved to a BOY'S RANCH 400 miles away from their home at YFZ. Nice.
http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_9002940
Motion also seeks prayer privacy, attorney access
FLDS mothers ask Texas judge not to take away nursing children
This may be the most Orwellian or Kafkaesque exchange I have ever read:
During the hearing, attorneys for parents and children said they had certified birth certificates, social security numbers, Texas drivers licenses and even tax returns that could be used to validate names and ages.
But Voss said the documents would not be acceptable, suggesting some certificates might be forged.
And Judge Barbara Walther agreed.
''How do you know, in today's world of identity theft, a birth certificate is proof of who they are?." the judge asked.
Attorney Stephanie Goodman asked Voss whether a certified birth certificate would be acceptable proof for her client.
''I can't say that it wouldn't be,'' Voss said. But she also could not say it would be.
as reported by Salt Lake Tribune reporter Brooke Adams on April 20
Both Arizona and Utah have used birth certificates in prosecuting polygamous men, considering them "absolute proof."
So the government has it both ways:
If you have a birth certifcate in a case against a polygamist it is solid evidence.
If you are a polygamist and you have a birth certificate as a defense it is not acceptable.
The rituals have changed over the years and no it hasn't always been for the better. But that is the way the life God has given us goes. I as a Christian feel sorry for the children and the heartache that even the mothers may be feeling. But you need one man and one wife. Children need to know who there parents are. If the women had to keep secrets from the outside world then they are risking the welfare of children. They shouldn't expose the children to many different Mothers. If they don't think its wrong then why in the world should it be a secret. Turn people towards Jesus. Get them to do the right things if they feel what they are doing are correct then why are they not talking about it, justifying it? It a sign of the time to stop and get your own home.
It would be nice to live in your own little world but it is not the way the Lord has it made. Also who cares about there hair!!!?
I know where they get the underage marraige thing - because God chose 14 year old Mary without asking her consent to be the mother of his Holy Child. THen God told her to marry a man in his 40's to be the earthly father and her hudsband, THAT Is where they get that from. But these religious leasders (men) put themelves in Gods place to BE the God of their community - and God did not give them that authority to play God. They gave themeslves that authority and this is wrong. Further God made it clear that any man who wanted to be in any position in the 'church' they had to be the husband of only ONE wife and have an obedient family. 1 Timothy 3:2
The Community living set apart from the world is not a bad thing, as long as the families inside can live like normal families each in their own homes, and sharing the work load is fine to raise good healthy food and make clothes, etc.. However this thing that the men are wardens over the wives and torture the chidlren with baby water-boarding (literally) to instill fear is very much against God's rules and laws ! This falls under the warning God gives a death sentence for those who injure in any way an innocent child. Matt. 18:6 ; Mark 9:42 ; Luke 17:2 The men will stand before God on what they have done to those poor babies ! The men are to love their wives like they love themselves ! And they are to PROTECT their children, not cause them to fear ! This is NOT how you teach respect ! You teach respect by EXAMPLE, not by being Hitler !
But the separate community is what God DOES order. When you are in a Sodom and Gomorrah world as we are - God orders us to "come out of her (world system) my people and be ye SEPARATE" ! Rev. 18:4
So they have that part of it right. But the men have to shape up on THEIR EVIL BEHAVIOR and stop this sexual harum system they have going - God NEVER INTENDED FOR THIS ! AND They have to stop their idol worship of man - no place does God EVER allow or even tolerate worship of anyone except Him - not any self-appointed prophet as they have done ! This is a grave sin ! Those children wake up to pictures of a petaphile and rapist (Jeffs) on every wall in the house ! Not one picture of Jesus their Savior is anywhere !
And not many, if any, family pictures of a normal family can be seen ! God intended a family to have one mother and one father and to live like a normal God-made family. IF they had done things GOD'S way instead of their own, none of this would have happened!
Then they would have had a separate protected community like many rich people have behind their own guilded fences called "closed communities".
They brought this upon themlselves by their god-like men acting like they are God, instead of them being good Godly leaders and Godly EXAMPLES to their wives and children, according to the Scriptures.
This wicked judgment has fallen upon them for these sins ! The evil Federalists have invaded their space and God uses nations (the USA is a nation that they were separated from) to bring judgement upon those that need discipline. He did it many times to Israel for their disobedience and worshipping of idols and other gods. They need to learn from this and not go back to their own ways. They need to repent, especially the men, and then God will hear their pleas and repair the damage.
They can dress any way they wish, but their behavior must change to please God! First thing they need to do is throw away all those idols of Jeffs they have plastered on every wall, and stop seeing him as some kind of God ! He is a criminal ! Put pictures of Jesus Christ up instead and begin to worship HIM !
And give those children some coloring books and crayons for pete sakes ! Get some creative teaching and activities going ! Get some baseballs and bats for some ball games and jump ropes and things like that. They have those kids like they are in prison on Jeff's orders ! Get rid of the Jeff's robotic mentality ! Start thinking for yourself ! Give everyone some breathing room !
it's too easy for people (like me) to say, "well, i don't approve of polygamy, so why do i care what happens to polygamists?" but if i don't care what happens to people i don't like, then who's going to protect my rights? and these aren't just random polygamists. they're mormons. (or at least they say they are.) who's next? jews? baptists? catholics? muslims? republicans? people who know how to read and write?
it wasn't just the "tip" that was trumped up. remember when the texas rangers publicized loudly ahead of time that they were going in armed to the teeth? just in case there was armed resistance? this entire case was so flagrantly cooked up that even if evidence is found that some children were being abused or raped, how does that justify mass roundups of children?
again: who's next?
Well, Speaking of Polygamy. It was very prevalant in the Old Testiment, but in the new testiment the scripture says that a man is the priest of his household and the Bishop is to be the husband of one wife. Again though, the men in the old testiment had children with their handmaidens etc...Father Abraham had many sons by different women. The new testament says to abide by the laws of the land. You decide.
Correction - "Father" Abraham did NOT have "many children" with many women. His name translates to "father of multitudes" so maybe this is where you get that idea from. But Abraham only fathered two sons: Ishmael (with wife's handmaiden Hagar), and Isaac (with wife Sarah). One was the father of the Jews, and the other the father of the Muslim Arabs.
Abraham was the father of many nations through his sons.
This having to re-register every time I want to write anything here is getting to be a pain in the neck. Takes up so much time to have to re-register each time ! And then to re-register it still sometimes rejects the same pass word used each time.
Men who have polygynous marriages are cowards. The women step forward, and every single man hides from the camera, or has his face pixelated out. Hide from the camera, hide behind biblical precepts, they are still cowards.
My understanding is that the men were not allowed to leave the compound. This decision was made by the state. Whether their faces were pixellated is a decision sometimes made by the television station.
If all polygamous men were cowards, you wouldn't be reading this blog :)
Polyagmy is not my belief, but I can not believe what CPS here in TX has done. All of these children seem very well cared for & loved. It is strange to me how CPS determines a bad or abusive environment. I contacted CPS at the county (Grayson County) level & the State of TX regarding a case. The mother of a newborn was a drug user & for a new car and money "sold" her baby to a gay man. Drug tests were done and came back positive, the CPS caseworker assured me the newborn and the mothers older child would both be removed from the home. Then the next day he called & told me his boss had overridden his decision & the case was closed. What kind of logic is that?
CPS is telling a lot of LIES to cover up for what they did and are doing - you cannot believe anything they say or any other Federal agents say for that matter. The Feds want those kids and babies in their own Federal system so they can plug them full of their deadly vaccinations, drugs, etc. and train them up to be their obedient "world citizens". CPS has labelled a lot of them as "teens" whe they have shown birth certificates (CPS won't accept them)showing they are in their 20's ! Anything to take their kids and newborns for the wicked Federal system rearing.
Now I do not approve of a lot that goes on inside that camp/ranch/whatever but they have one thing right - the Feds are evil and after full control over everyone. I don't believe the way those people do but this part they do have right.
What the Feds have done (and the CPS ARE Federal agents) have done in Texas is illegal no matter how they try to sugar-coat it and lie about it.
The Constitution give NO permission or authority for the Government or their entites to have anything to do with health care, education, schools, or families how they raise their kids.
The Feds over-step in all of these things ! THE Cosntitution is the Law of the Land - NOT the Federalists or the laws THEY create so they can control everyone and everything. This is a dictatorship and has been since Lincoln created it in l861 ! This is NOT our Founder's country or government since that time !